Do the Japanese really love nature more than all other people ?

[pipokun]

The data on park per capita doesn't support the exsistance of the strange Japanese population claiming the propaganda you repeatedly mention, even caused trauma.

About the politics, just look at the our neighbors. It is sad that liberalism in Japan or Asia is still related to the red. But I also feel perplexed to see Europeans vote far-right parties and some countries have to ban them. I don't know if they are greener or not, thogh.

[undrentide]

Anyway, how many houses with garden/yard have you seen in Tokyo ? Personally, none.

I'm curious which part of Tokyo you were living and which parts of Tokyo you've visited... (Maybe shitamachi areas??)

[Maciamo]

A little update about the zoos. I only managed to find a list of 69 zoos, animal parks, safari parks, bird parks, and animal reserves in Japan (there could be more), but what is certain is that there are over 675 in Germany alone (including 414 actual zoological gardens => see list), at least 63 in Austria (for a population 16x smaller than Japan => see list), at least 123 in France (see list), etc. There are about 350 zoos in the USA. I have made a list of a famous zoos in Europe. Let's keep in mind that the population of the EU is only about 3x bigger than Japan, but there are thousands of zoos, animals parks, aquaria, etc. However you look at it, Europeans (and to a lesser extent also Americans) are much keener on animals than the Japanese.

What is more, Japan's biggest zoo doesn't make the top 5 in Europe in terms of number os species and total animals, and maybe not the top 10 (I do not have all the necessary data for Europe).

[pipokun]

If I were you, Maciamo, I'd loudly agitate us over the anti-zoo movement outside Japan or species extinction in Japan after Meiji ...

The movement is also here. The latter one is really critical, for the extinction of Toki bird, Japanese crested ibis, unabled the Ise shrine to preserve every 20 year reconstruction work. The shrine will continue to do the work, but it is not exactly the same as the ones hundred or thoudsand years ago any more...

[gaijinalways]

Actually, I just thought of one area where maybe you forgot to mention that the Japanese are often 'talking and thinking' about nature; poetry..haiku for example. Traditional haiku always features some natural scenery and some comparison to the sun, moon, an animal, etc. Now of course one could argue that just talking about nature is not the same as spending time in it, but one would have to state that in haiku often people had to think and observe some aspects of nature to write the comments that they struggled to include in their poetry. Now of course whether Japanese as compared to other people aound the globe write more poetry about nature or not, I don't know.

[Maciamo]

Actually, I just thought of one area where maybe you forgot to mention that the Japanese are often 'talking and thinking' about nature; poetry..haiku for example. Traditional haiku always features some natural scenery and some comparison to the sun, moon, an animal, etc. Now of course one could argue that just talking about nature is not the same as spending time in it, but one would have to state that in haiku often people had to think and observe some aspects of nature to write the comments that they struggled to include in their poetry. Now of course whether Japanese as compared to other people aound the globe write more poetry about nature or not, I don't know.

Poetry has been inspired by nature since ancient times, probably all over the world. I don't see in what Japan is special for that. In fact I found traditional Japanese art in general not to be very "nature-centered", compared to the ancient Greeks and Romans. Traditional Japanese art is very much Buddhism-centered. Shintoism didn't inspire muc artists. On the contrary, Roman mosaics, for instance, are almost always about nature, the four seasons, etc. Greco-Roman mythology is full of themes about nature, such as the gods of the 4 four winds, the Nymphs, who were personifications of the creative and fostering activities of nature, or many other gods associated with nature (Dionysos the god of wine, Pan the shepherd god, Artemis the huntress, etc.). The cult of nature is also very present in modern paganism.

[pipokun]

But French Dionysus is now believing in more beer than wine, isn't it?

[sabro]

I didn't vote in the poll. I thought the choices in the poll were too limited, and would cause me to make an unfair generality based upon my limited perception.

I would imagine that some Japanese people care deeply about nature and a lot of others don't. Japan has a long tradition of art, visual and performing arts, dedicated to nature. The influence of Budhism and the ancient anamistic traditions affect spiritual and aesthetic values. They have as a culture perfected the small garden and ways of bringing bits of nature into the urban environment. Bonsai, the tea garden, the koi pond, Zen gardens of sand and stone... the concept of Wabi Sabi... all point to some deep appreciation of nature.
Japan is also has one of the strongest anti-nuclear movements on the planet. It is also a pioneer in the alternative fuels and hybrid autos (I own a Honda Insight). Recycling and green energy is on the rise.
Greenpeace in Japan has 15 full time staff and 4500 members.
Friends of Earth Japan has been around for twenty six years.
In spite of this, for a country of it's size and wealth there seems to be a general disregard for nature, or at least that is the perception I get... and the conservation and anti-polution values seem to be generally disregarded or considered of secondary importance.

[Maciamo]

I would imagine that some Japanese people care deeply about nature and a lot of others don't.

This is obvious, like in any other country. What I ask you in this thread is to make the mental calculation to get the average (addition of all the individuals divided by the total population) and see if that average is higher than all other countries on earth. If only one country, even a tiny one like Luxembourg, has a higher average of people who care about nature, then the answer to the thread question is "no" (which seems so obvious to me that I am surprised some people answered the opposite). Even if Japan ranks in the top 10 among 230 countries on earth, it doesn't matter, as it isn't first as some Japanese I have met have claimed.

Japan has a long tradition of art, visual and performing arts, dedicated to nature. The influence of Budhism and the ancient anamistic traditions affect spiritual and aesthetic values. They have as a culture perfected the small garden and ways of bringing bits of nature into the urban environment. Bonsai, the tea garden, the koi pond, Zen gardens of sand and stone... the concept of Wabi Sabi... all point to some deep appreciation of nature.

This is the old culture of Japan, which has mainly disappeared for most of the modern population (well as much as the ancient, medieval, renaissance or 17th to 19th century cultures in Europe are not a reflection of modern Europe).

Japan is also has one of the strongest anti-nuclear movements on the planet.

This may be true for nuclear weapons, but they have good reason for that as the only country who was victim of the A-bomb. As for nuclear energy itself, the Japanese government is a fervent supporter of it. There are currently 53 operating nuclear power plants in Japan, against 17 in Germany, 23 in the UK, 9 in Spain or 0 in Italy. Only France has a similar number.

It is also a pioneer in the alternative fuels and hybrid autos (I own a Honda Insight).

True for car makers, but biofuel isn't available for cars in service stations like in Sweden or some other European countries, is it ?

Recycling and green energy is on the rise.

Recycling rules vary a lot among municipalities in Japan. For instance my ward in Tokyo didn't have a recycling category for batteries (I did ask the townhall and check their website), which is unbelievable here in Belgium. Japan is also one of the few developed countries that still incinerate most of its non-recyclable waste, rather than bury it. This is extremely noxious to public health because of all the toxic emissions (dioxin...) and causes lots of cancers.

Greenpeace in Japan has 15 full time staff and 4500 members.

See, this is ridiculously low for a country of 127,000,000 people. The London office alone has 90 full-time staff. Greenpeace has 250,000 in the USA (for about twice the population of Japan) and 2.5 million members in 40 countries worldwide (mostly in Europe).

Friends of Earth Japan has been around for twenty six years.

The WWF, founded in Switzerland, has been around for 45 years. Greenpeace, founded in Canada and now headquartered in Amsterdam, has been around for 35 years. Have a look at this list of environmental organizations, mosly in Western countries. If you know well Japanese ones, feel free to add them as none of them are listed.

In spite of this, for a country of it's size and wealth there seems to be a general disregard for nature, or at least that is the perception I get... and the conservation and anti-polution values seem to be generally disregarded or considered of secondary importance.

We agree here.

[sabro]

There may not be the modern equivalents of a conservation and environmental movement present in Japan as they are in the US and in Europe. It could just be that in the 20th century, the Western nations had a bit of a headstart and are more conscious of environmental issues. I'm not certain how you could measure this though.

I'm not sure you can average attitudes... and even though your point may be well taken, the items used for support don't always seem to jive logically. Which is not to disagree at all. It is really difficult to account for cultural differences and a lot of perception has to do with observation of how people behave. You have significantly more experience observing the Japanese first-hand... as I have never been to Japan, and it may simply be true that your generalities are accurate based upon observation.

[Goldiegirl]

I was suprised that there was a plant, flower, bush or something green planted or potted in all these little tiny available areas around extremley cramped and close spaces. I got the impression that people wanted to see green plants and flowers despite not having any room. In Tsunam everyone had a garden and everyone was proud to show me their gardens and to let me know the vegetables that I would be eating that day were grown by them. I can't say for sure that the Japanese do or don't like nature more than others, but comparing cramped, crowded Tokyo to Milwaukee, I can say for sure that Tokyo had more flowers and plants around their tiny houses/apartments. Milwaukee's city housing looks terrible and virtually no one plants a thing.

[Maciamo]

I was suprised that there was a plant, flower, bush or something green planted or potted in all these little tiny available areas around extremley cramped and close spaces. I got the impression that people wanted to see green plants and flowers despite not having any room.

Why is that surprising ? Most Japanese houses don't have a windowstand outside the house where to hang flowers, so they put in directly on the street. Here (in Belgium, but also Europe in general), most people have flower pots at their windows or balconies, in addition to a garden. If you live in city center, gardens are hidden inside the block of buildings, but you want your facade to look nice and so you put flowers. In the suburbs or in the countryside, as houses often have a frontyard as well, it is common to have trees, bushes and flowers in front as well as behind houses. Here are some pictures of flowers on balconies or frontyards in Brussels. The houses themselves are not very nice because the pics were taken in some of the worst neighbourhoods of the capital, but well...

In Tsunam everyone had a garden and everyone was proud to show me their gardens and to let me know the vegetables that I would be eating that day were grown by them.

Where is "Tsunam" ?

I can't say for sure that the Japanese do or don't like nature more than others, but comparing cramped, crowded Tokyo to Milwaukee, I can say for sure that Tokyo had more flowers and plants around their tiny houses/apartments. Milwaukee's city housing looks terrible and virtually no one plants a thing.

That doesn't make me want to visit Milwaukee...

[sabro]

Milwaukee- I think you go for the beer, but you stay for the...beer also.

[gaijinalways]

Maciamo posted

Poetry has been inspired by nature since ancient times, probably all over the world. I don't see in what Japan is special for that.

Uh, that wasn't my point. I just mentioned this is a category you failed to look at.

gaijinalways posted

Now of course whether Japanese as compared to other people aound the globe write more poetry about nature or not, I don't know. Nov 25, 2006 22:00

So as I mentioned in traditional haiku now, Japanese talk about nature. To get a good comparison with other cultures, I would think you should look at the percentage of poems talking about nature now, not when cultures started talking about it (not to put your mythology lesson down, it was rather interesting).

Most of the opinions you have concerning Japan's supposed obsession with nature are concerned with the here and now, yes?

[Goldiegirl]

mmm...beer... Ok, for starters I don't want to give a bad impression of Milwaukee it really is a beautiful city. The city itself has many parks and of course being along Lake Michigan we have plenty of beaches and open areas. The difference that I saw was that here people don't decorate their houses in the city like in Tokyo. Maybe it is because rent is cheap here and people routinely and frequently move so why bother with plants. Just a thought...The city itself has tree lined streets and hanging flower baskets. We have many botanical gardens and a fantastic public park system, so if you need to see some green you can just leave your house and find it, without all the work to maintain it yourself. I live in the country and here, we all have gardens and flower beds. As a matter of fact my house is along a state forest, so I have my yard and then a whole park! It's great.

Tsunam (sorry if I spelled it wrong...that's how it sounded to my ears) is in Niigata Prefecture. It is surrounded by mountains and I was told it was one of the most snowiest places in Japan. It is a rural community, yet very active and lively. I was quite a suprise to all the neighbors! They were very curious about me as they said it is not common to get foreigners there. I appreciated there gardens as I enjoyed fresh vegetables every day!

@sabro yep you go for the beer, but you stay after the beer because you can't find your way out!

[doinkies]

Tsunam (sorry if I spelled it wrong...that's how it sounded to my ears) is in Niigata Prefecture. It is surrounded by mountains and I was told it was one of the most snowiest places in Japan. It is a rural community, yet very active and lively. I was quite a suprise to all the neighbors! They were very curious about me as they said it is not common to get foreigners there. I appreciated there gardens as I enjoyed fresh vegetables every day!

It's actually spelled Tsunan (津南), I think. ^^

[sabro]

Check out Maciamo's photos in the gallery section. It may not be everywhere, but nature is apparently still out there.

http://www.wa-pedia.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/503

[nurizeko]

Heres a few points to considor about Japan.

1. Japan is highly mountainous, very vertical.

2. Theres is relatively little flat land.

3. Japan has a high population.

4. Japan is streached out over a long area, so most flat land is a little strip
between the sea and the mountainous interior.

Considoring these points, I'm not suprised Urban living seems awfully cramped.
They cant afford Gardens because land is always in high demand and short supply, in western Europe we have massive huge flood-plains and rolling terrain to build over to our hearts content, but relatively low population density, so we dont want or need to build over everything.
Saying that, from what i have gathered, the Japanese really do like to get out into the country.

Concrete works along rivers and hills near to cities are there to protect the cities, Japan needs to protect what flat land it has.
This does however seem to create a more noticable apathy towards nature in an urban setting, but its merely because the situation means a green urban enviroment for most Japanese isnt practical.

In my home city of Aberdeen we have plenty of gardens and tree's and green spaces but thats because were one small city with plenty of room for everyone who wants to live here.

The fact people spend good money to buy potted plants and stuff for outside the front of their houses is indication enough nature is important to them.
The only difference really is that:

1. The western world morally masturbates to nature to make ourselves feel like good noble people.

and:

2. The constraints of the crowded urban lifestyles of many Japanese means coupled with the demands on their time and energy means they just dont have days at a time to watch a bird sitting on a branch or watching a tree grow or whatever.

I love greenery and nature myself but yeah, I can see why many Japanese just dont have the time and space to get into it as deeply as westerners.

Maciamo: If your going to use secondary sources I would advice seeking out academic literature instead of more pop-lit type of stuff.
The book you linked too isnt a scientific study into the destruction of the enviroment of rural Japan, its a book about the opinion of one writer, in essence, its not much more valid and impartial then a republican rant about the evils of a democrat run America or something.

As entitled to their biased opinions as any given foreign visitor to Japan is, this doesnt make it fact.

I was in Japan just 3 months and even I saw enough of the country to know the claim that all but one rivers of japan are concreted up was false.
And I've never seen a concreted up mountainside ever, and I went on a drive through them to go fishing once.

I dont exactly know your first hand experiences of Japan, but if you never got out of mega-Tokyo, your not really in a position to make wild claims on all Japan, while if you have travelled around a bit, it would be suprising if you could sincerely claim to have seen every hillside and river concreted up.

I will agree though for various reasons gardens and nature being on the minds of most urban Japanese is rarer then Europe.

At the time he wrote the book, there was only one river in Japan that didn't have concrete anywhere from the beginning to the end (in Shikoku, if I remember well).

Thats unfair and you know it, very few rivers that run through a European city do so without concreted banks in places.

Concreted waterways arent the preserve of japan, where do you think they got the idea?, concreting a river bank in certain areas are there to ensure the banks remain stable for the nearby buildings, and to help control any rise in water flow, to help dampen or stop the effects of what would otherwise cause flooding.

Again, Japan is a country which in many places only has a thin strip of flat land between mountain and sea, where the effect of flash or severe floods can be even worse, and when flat-land is in such high demand, building right up to a river bank is sometimes the only option, and as such that bank needs to be stabalised and protected against flooding.

[Goldiegirl]

Sorry if I was wrong in the spelling. It was how I heard it pronounced...I was told it was like Tsunami, so I figured Tsunam was correct. I haven't had a chance to look it up. I was amazed at all the mountains as I arrived well past 11pm and I couldn't see anything from the drive from the train station. All I knew was that the road was really curving and twisting. Imagine my suprise to wake up in the morning and see mountains everywhere. I knew a little about the area, but actually seeing the terrain makes it more real. I think that in that particular area the people were very proud of the natural beauty that surrounds them and they wanted to show it off to me. It somehow reminded me of the highlands in Scotland...

[sabro]

The poll doesn't have any choices that reflect what I think or seem remotely reasonable, so I chose "Why would they care more than others ?"

[Half-n-Half]

I think they "praise" nature more such as the cherry blossom events (sorry I don't know what they are called) and haiku which is primarily centered around nature. Since Japan is an island about the size of California with lots of mountains, forests, rivers, etc., the nature aspect of Japan is more obvious because it is easier to look around and see it. In Japan it was a common belief that everything had a spirit or god, such as water, trees, rocks, etc.

As for respecting nature, I think they are like any other country. Pollution is definitely there in Japan and you can see garbage and litter relatively easy. However, the country is very crowded so the pollution is magnified and more concentrated. That's my two-cents anyways.

[JerseyBoy]

I've been reading "Collapse" by Jared Diamond, which is a good book in my opinion. He mentioned Japan has over 70% of its land covered by trees. For any industrialized country, it would be a balancing act between business and environment. By looking at Japan's recycling policy, Japan is managing the environmental issues quite well compared to other countries.

[Mars Man]

Ooo! Jared Diamond, a name I do respect. Statistically, it might be good to keep in mind, along with that most likely fact, that a large percent of Japan is mountianside as well. . . and it's a bit expensive to build into a mountain.

I have always respected much of the effort to recycle, but one does find a few hang-ups here and there.

[kireikoori]

If Japan cared so much about nature, why the whaling?

[SpikeDaCruz]

"Why would they care more than others ?"