Japan is not a western country!! I don't think you can define it western simply because it is developped. Japan still has many, many eastern traditions as regular practice. I really don't even see a point to this debate.
Yes
Maybe, depends how you see it
No
Don't know
Japan is not a western country!! I don't think you can define it western simply because it is developped. Japan still has many, many eastern traditions as regular practice. I really don't even see a point to this debate.
Japan is clearly NO Western country. "Western" means the opposite from "Eastern", which in turn refers to the Asian countries (Japan, China etc.).
"Western" refers to populations from the northern half of the Eurasian continent, and to North-American populations.
"Eastern" refers to populations from the Asian contries (southern half of the Eurasian continent).
Populations from Africa and South-America are neither Western nor Eastern, but Southern populations (more frequently also called "3rd-world-countries").
Please be sure to run that by someone from Africa or South America... you might be surprised at what you hear in response....Originally Posted by Lina Inverse
... Hua He left out a group (or groups?); there are more people in this world than "whites" "blacks" and "yellows". And while this statement is somewhat true, I think it is slippery.
Why again is it important (necessary?) to be able to call people "eastern" or "western"... ?
This is certainly an interesting thread
I agree
I agree with both sentences. It's an interesting thread well brought up by Maciamo. Thanks.Why again is it important (necessary?) to be able to call people "eastern" or "western"... ?
This is certainly an interesting thread
As for wether we are westerners or esterners will specifically depend wher you stand and wether you are facing north or south ...
Well it was intended as a joke, (and not as a stupid statement) just to shift the emphasis from a mere statement to a reality. It's just used by "whoever give some information" to sort of localize physically and geographically the subject. But since we always pick up what the Europeans say, we, in Asia, have been call the "easterner" .
It's just a name, not an insult or injurious name. It was not meant to be anyway. So let's keep it at that.
The main question asked in fact meant : Is Japan becomming too much of a "Europeanised and Americanized" country. And that somehow wouold b a shame, somewher (as I mentionned earlier)
Just little me!!! But maybe a little taller
You grow up, every day. Every second...
I agree
I see...The main question asked in fact meant : Is Japan becomming too much of a "Europeanised and Americanized" country. And that somehow wouold b a shame, somewher (as I mentionned earlier)
So:
What are the standards we use to measure cultural change, in terms of quality? IE: is it fair (a good idea/acceptable) to measure today's "Europeanised and Americanised" (a.k.a: "Globalised") Japan in terms of it's past alone? Do we use other standards, and what are they (if any)?
This isn't necessarily a question solely for Yimija, but something I am just throwing out... If it has alreadey been answered elsewhere in the thread,"gomen"... but this thread is getting long, and I came in late... I admit to skimming a bit.
we all do... skimming !
Sorry, I just do not completely agree with the term "globalization", simply because, if you look in a dictionnary, it means roughly "putting everything on the same level" and the actual globalization tend to skip and put apart all the poor countries, the so called 3rd world and the non "interresting-commercially" countries.
What are the standards we use to measure cultural change, in terms of quality? IE: is it fair (a good idea/acceptable) to measure today's "Europeanised and Americanised" (a.k.a: "Globalised") Japan in terms of it's past alone? Do we use other standards, and what are they (if any)?
This isn't necessarily a question solely for Yimija, but something I am just throwing out... If it has alreadey been answered elsewhere in the thread,
Like for exemple : Irak is completely part of globalization because it has billions of ｣$｣$｣ worth of petrol, so we care about killing there, but Rwanda is a "non-interresting-commercially" country and so we dont give a..XXXXX (wont say the word) about the ethnic massacres, killing hundreds of thousands of people. So I believe (in fact I'm certain) globalization is a product for the riches, invented by the riches. So let's keep it "western, eastern, northern and southern" and we might know what we are talking about.
and dot worry about skimming, we all do it when it comes to a long thread.
NOTE: long reply with not a lot of mention of Japan... but I'm hoping in the end it will be pertinent.
and so:
OK... I think I follow you...
I can see your point here... but I think it is slippery. Ever been to Colombia? Plenty of oil (British Petrol, Occidental etc..) like Iraq... .... also, like Iraq... not the most stable source of oil (a lot of civil unrest).Like for exemple : Irak is completely part of globalization because it has billions of ｣$｣$｣ worth of petrol, so we care about killing there, but Rwanda is a "non-interresting-commercially" country and so we dont give a..XXXXX (wont say the word) about the ethnic massacres, killing hundreds of thousands of people.
And like Rwanda, a whole lot of killings... paramilitary death squads, government corruption... Interesting fact: Colombia has the worlds third largest displaced population (after Chad and Angola? Don't quote me on those..). At least last time I checked--prolly 2002.
I'll give five dollars to the first person here who remembers the Florida case where Coca Cola was brought up on accusations of using Colombian paramilitaries to murder unionists. That one never made front page here at home... How many people here can name just one of the (USDS recognized) terrorist groups in Colombia... How many can name two? Three? (Congrats... if you named all three, you ought to consider employment with the U.S. Dept. of State).
That emerald in the ring you bought wifey? Good chance it came from Colombia. That coffee you're drinking? Good chance it came from Colombia. That gas you just put in your car? Good chance some of it came from Colombia.
I don't know about the rest of the world, but Average-Joe-American (stopping at BP for gas, with a cup of coffee in his hand) knows nothing about the Mapiripan Masacre (30 people in a small village dismembered one by one with a chainsaw in a local slaughterhouse, with the cooperation of the Colombian National Military--the same military we throw millions upon millions of US tax dollars at to take care of "our" drug problem).
I'm hoping you see my point... lots of "commercial interest", very little "awareness".
I'm largely with you here...So I believe (in fact I'm certain) globalization is a product for the riches, invented by the riches.
But, I don't really see the point of all this.
I think what you may be trying to say is that there is a problem with the way we define Globalization: It's not really global (since it has/wants nothing to do with the third world--Colombia being an exception).
I see it thus: Japan, is NOT a third world country. The question is still valid as it pertains to Japan. While I would still pose the question to Colombia today... I will not pose it to Rwanda, as I know very little about Rwanda... and am largely inclined to agree with your objection to the definition of "globalization" (regardless).
Here is the question once more:
What are the standards we use to measure cultural change, in terms of quality? IE: is it fair (a good idea/acceptable) to measure today's "Europeanised and Americanised" (a.k.a: "Globalised") Japan in terms of it's past alone? Do we use other standards, and what are they (if any)?
And, lastly, I would put this to you: If you insist on pulling "Globalization" out of the discussion... please give me an example of a country that is being "Americanized and Europeanized" without being Globalized.
Americanized, and Europeanized.... I take these to be dynamic terms involving more than just "customs" and "traditions", but economic and political philosophies as well. These are not just labels and categories... these are things that have been described as "wiping out" cultures--replacing them with MacDonald's, Coca Cola, Democracy, Christianity (?)... I believe these are the charges that have been made.
But then... no globalization in Rwanda yet? They can drink Coca Cola, can't they... just wait.
So is Russian an Eastern countries, as it is clearly more East than Europe ? If not what about Turkey, Israel ? Is Morroco a Western countries because it is next to Western Europe ?
Are you saying that Chile and Argentina (90% of pure European descent) are not Western countries ?Populations from Africa and South-America are neither Western nor Eastern, but Southern populations (more frequently also called "3rd-world-countries").
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the shift of continents...
Yes good remark, Maciamo ! As time goes by and that continents shifts in extremely slow motion, the countries that are built on those continents will have a tendency to move extremely fast from "east to west", strangely enough !!! Ima-Sumac only knows where Israel and Turkey stand, especially if you compare them with the Palestinian country...
Unfortunately, they are not considered as western countries, and that is all the "funny" (i should say bizarre) part of it since that they are, geographically, just as much "west" as US & Canada. Africa is about the same as Europe and they are not not considered western.
Somewhere, and it's far from being a conclusion, it make me sick that we have to adopt a system in which we now are forced to give graduate "appreciation" of one's location and one's "wealth-by-location". I'm an optimistic person and I hope it will change. But I wont be here to see it. I'm planning a trip back home to Venus...
The problem in trying to determine whether or not Japan is a Western country is defining what we mean by 'Western'.
Clearly 'Western' is not a geographical term as both Australia and New Zealand are considered Western countries. 'Western' is also not a religious term as Western nations are tolerant of all religions and make no discrimination against particular religions.
'Western' is also not a term inferred from a Greco-Roman past. Egypt has a Greco-Roman past, as does Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, Morocco, etc and these nations are not considered 'Western'.
'Western' would seem to be a term applied to those countries, which have democratic governments, and which can trace their heritage back directly to Western Europe in one form or another.
Australia, New Zealand, Canada and America are all former British colonies and are all 'Western' countries. The member states of the EU are all 'Western' nations, those Eastern European nations, which have joined the EU are now considered 'Western' nations.
'Western' nations all share common beliefs and values e.g. democracy, freedom of speech, multi-culturalism, religious freedom, etc.
Japan has been directly and indirectly influenced by several Western nations over the past four centuries. Japan adopted many Western traits after WWI, having seen the triumph of the democratic powers. Japan then moved towards an authorotarian military state in WWII and then back to a democracy under direct Allied influence after WWII.
Japan can therefore be said to have been under Western influence.
There is freedom of religion in Japan.
Foreigners are allowed to live in Japan without fear of persecution.
One could therefore reasonably assume that Japan was a Western country based upon the above principles, however, such an assumption would be wrong. Such an asusmption fails to take into account the fact that Japan has never been a colony of a Western power. Japan has adopted certain aspects of Western culture, whilst retaining much of its own identity. A good example of this would be that after WWII Japan retained a monarchy, although that monarchy was drasticaly altered to fit more closely to Western ideals.
It is perhaps bets to think of Japan as a mixture of both Western and Eastern, it is no longer exclusively either.
Every country is western, and every country is eastern. It just depends on which direction you travel around the globe to get there XD
Looking at Geographically Japan most certainly is NOT western! But technology-wise they are. However why should the US and Europe not be called Eastern then because Japanese Technology far surpasses theirs : )
I hope Japan never loses its ancient roots and customs to a relentless wave of "western" influences. Even though modern Japan intrigues me, there's something about old Japan, and the noble Samurai heritage that is mystical to me. Maybe they echo my forfathers of Attila and the Turkic warriors..
Westerness has little to do with technology. It's more about the system and cultural, political and scientific heritage. Let say that the Western vs Eastern division originally means Europe vs Asia, but was shattered by the European expansion in the Americas and Oceania. Well, if it was only for the American continent, we could still say that Europe and the Americas were Western because of geography. But that doesn't work with Australia and NZ. So Western has come to mean people who have inherited, as I said, the system, culture, etc. of Europe.
But it is no limited to people of European descent, as many africans, asians and 'mixed races' both in Europe and the Americas have also become Westerners, absorbed by the culture and system of the country they reside in.
The purpose of this thread was mostly to determine whether the Japanese have absorbed enough of the Western system (politics, economy, sciences, education...) and culture (incl. language, food, clothes, music, lifestyle...) to be considered Western. If we only compare one European/North American country with Japan, the answer seems to be 'no'. However, looking at how Japan was before the Meiji revolution and how it is now, we can only say that most things found in Japan have been Westernized and very little remain of the original culture. Ironically, what remains most of the 'Japanese' culture and system is what came from China, i.e. the Kanji, Confucianism (e.g. seniority system and politeness system)...
About everything else has been Westernized : the clothes, food (e.g. dairy products and meat, none of whcih were eaten before Meiji), political system (democracy with political parties), technology and education (copied on the American model after WWII)... Even the main Western 'traditional events' such as the New Year (Japan used the Chinese New Year before Meiji, but now celebrates it on 1st January), Xmas or Valentine's have become more important than the traditional Sino-Japanese or Buddhist ones.
But looking at it like that, few countries in the world if any have resisted westernization. Japan is however one of the most Westernized countries in Asia, along with Singapore and South Korea. Sometimes I am really surprised at how many English words are used in everyday Japanese. I think no European language uses nearly as many.
Japan modeled almost all of its modern institutions on Western countries. In this respect, it is Westernized.
The only country I've visited in Asia more Westernized than Japan is Singapore.
Well it does depend how you look at it sort of. Japan is a very modern rich country but if we are going to say that modern and rich countries are western I think that is a bit rude;).
I think it more has to do with values. Despite the fact that Europe is becoming largelly non-religious, it still holds still to judeo-christian values. Even those who classify themselves as non-religious still partake in many western judeo-christian traditions such as christmas. Even if a nation is not religious the traditions and culture from it are enough to classify them.
For example in th East many Japanese still hold true to many shinto-buddhist values despite many not bein religious at all. In fact there are only 4 million actual shinto-buddhist followers, the rest of the 100 million are only shinto-buddhist by name. Despite this fact many still partake in shinto-buddhist traditions.
Japan has been heavily influenced by the west and some people would say Japan is the most "western" of all countries.
However when it comes down to the fundementals Japanese have a very different culture and tradition than people of Australia, New Zealand, Europe, USA, and Canada. The West has more judeo-christian traditions and culture while Japan has more shinto-buddhist traditions and culture. It has nothing with being religious, it more based IMO more on culture and tradition;).
Guess I will add my opinion as well... No, Japan is certainly not a Western country by any stretch of the imagination but a rather Westernised one.
Some Western folks have made the mistake of thinking it as a Western country and have paid the price by realising their folly first hand when they enter its judicial system. What they would have gotten a slap on the wrist for back in their own countries, e.g. possession and usage of certain narcotics, they end up sitting (literally) in jail for many, many years in Japan. Yes, in spirit, Japan is as east-asian as it gets. The rights of the individual seem to take 2nd place to the good of the majority.
An interesting read:
http://www.phaseloop.com/foreignpris...son-japan.html
ex-gaijin, maybe the word inscrutable would be a more appropriate term.
Japan is in a sense a "western" nation because if it were not for the west, Japan would not be the democratic, economic powerhouse, and prosperous
nation we see today. Also I'm rather disheartened by the Japanese people on this thread completely rejecting any idea of them being westernized at all. Lets take a look at some history shall we?
Japan began an offical policy of modernization in 1868, From the 1700's on up they translation many european treatsies on various topics including but not limited to medicine, astronomy, philosophy, etc. In 1811 Japan made a government agency called the "Institute for the Investigation of Barbarian Books." It is unwise to think that Japan became this way on her own. The education system was set up on western models, Armies were trained with Western Tactics and instructors in the late 1800's. The first "democracy" of Japan was set up on the prussian model. Moderization was set up on western models. This is just pure and utter fact and history. The leaders of this time period saw the necessity to modernize and I believe it was a logical decesion on their part. Also after WWII democracy was set up by the USA in Japan.
I'm not trying to say all of Japans success is because of the west. Japan (and Germany as well) did absolutely splendid jobs rebuilding themselves after WWII. I'm just saying without western Influence we probably wouldn't see the same Japan that we see today. Also keep in note Japan has a long history of culture and idea borrowing. It was pretty much a steady thing throughout their entire history (in bc times it was China).
"Is Japan a western nation?" This is hard to discern. i'm not sure if i would define it as a western country but most definitly a westernized country
Last edited by extricate; Nov 7, 2006 at 18:45.
The correct terminology would be westernized. Of course Japan is not a Western country, but it is westernized. Some would say that Hawaii is Japan since so many of its population are of Japanese descent.
Hawaii is sooooo not Japan. The Japanese population are immigrants, that makes them Hawaiian Japanese, it doesn't turn Hawaii into Japan. Besides, after the second generation they are no longer Japanese, they may look Japanese, but in every way that matters they are Hawaiian (unless their parents kept them in some sort of bubble all their life).
That's how it works over here, first gen immigrants are Japanese Canadian, second gen is simply Canadian. After the second generation....you belong to us
All Hail to the HYPNOTOAD *clap* *clap* *clap*
Hawaii is sooo Japanese, at least that's what most Japanese over here in Japan think, that's why so many take vacations over there. And I said "some" people. Think about it...?Hawaii is sooooo not Japan. The Japanese population are immigrants, that makes them Hawaiian Japanese, it doesn't turn Hawaii into Japan. Besides, after the second generation they are no longer Japanese, they may look Japanese, but in every way that matters they are Hawaiian (unless their parents kept them in some sort of bubble all their life).
That's how it works over here, first gen immigrants are Japanese Canadian, second gen is simply Canadian. After the second generation....you belong to us
That's exactly what I think too.
That's exactly what I think too.
yeah.
i too agree.
it's as if "the west", or European sprouted or transplanted societies invented technology.
or as i tried (probably miserably) to point out that the concepts behind the Greek-based word "democracy", historically only existed in societies usually associated with "the west". because we use a word that has roots in a "western" language, we are led to believe that a certain bit of human nature was invented by a specific small group of people.
Last edited by Sukotto; Feb 18, 2008 at 00:11. Reason: expand, add link
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Democracy in Japan are FORCED into Japan after 2 years of america nuke Japan in 1945, so it is not because of Japanese own free will, also the democracy in Japan is deferent than in other western country.yeah.
i too agree.
it's as if "the west", or European sprouted or transplanted societies invented technology.
or as i tried (probably miserably) to point out that the concepts behind the Greek-based word "democracy", historically only existed in societies usually associated with "the west". because we use a word that has roots in a "western" language, we are led to believe that a certain bit of human nature was invented by a specific small group of people.
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