Is Japan a Western country ?

[fugue]

Actually, the so called "western" and "eastern" countries was actually differentiated racially. Just see, as long as it is a country with white in charge, this is a western country. If the country is with blacks or yellows in charge, it will be an eastern country. THis is the view of the whole world.

You hit the bull's eye.

[tasuki]

Sorry to disagree about your apparently set view of the world, but just as with the kanji comment, African countries are NOT and never will be Western countries. However, Brasil is a Western country... Can you explain that?

[Maciamo]

Tasuki, may I ask you :
Are Bolivia or Jamaica Western countries ?
What about South Africa, Israel, Singapore, Turkey and Russia. Feel free to develop your arguments for each of them.

[tasuki]

I feel that what hua he said is correct, but an overly broad generalisation. Traditionally, western countries are the European biggies: France, Italy, the UK, Spain and Portugal and the countries they colonized that are located in the so-called western hemisphere (don't ask me where it starts now, I don't know). However, that definition has since changed to include all the countries in the western hemisphere (excluding most if not all African countries), I believe. Yet, the term "Western" is too often used here and elsewhere to designate countries of mainly Latin, Angle, or Saxon heritage, which brings us back to the biggies above, the States, Canada, Mexico, and the South American countries conquered and colonized by the Spanish and Portuguese.

The political situations with most of the aforementioned countries since world war I has won most of them a designation of their own. Russia is a country of the former USSR, Turkey is a middle-eastern country, Singapore is and always was an Asian state, and South Africa is perceived (even if its not true) as a third world country. Another interesting concept, the third world.

I would place Bolivia in the Western lot myself, although I've never really given it any thought, nor have I ever seen Jamaica as anything else than what it is: Jamaica.

I would ask you the same question you did me. How about Australia? Do you see it as a western country?

[Maciamo]

Australia is probably the most Western in all the countries discussed here.

IMHO, Bolivia and Jamaica aren't even half Western. Bolivia and Peru are composed of more than 50% Quechua (former Inca kingdom) and still speak Quechua. I don't see why a mainly native American country should be more Western than Turkey, which used to be part of Ancient Greece, then Rome and remained a Greek speaking country till the Turl took over government in 1453. Ethnically and historically, Turkey is as European as Greece, which is laid the basis for Western civilization (without Greece, no Europe, no modern world).

Jamaica is an English speaking country with a strong black majority (like most Caribean islands) with 76% African descent, 15% Afro-European descent, 4% European, 3% East Indian & Middle Eastern, 1% Afro-Chinese & Chinese. In comparison, South Africa is also English (and Afrikaans, which is Dutch) speaking, and has a very similar ethical composition : 77% black, 10% white, 8% mixed race, 2.5% of Indian or Asian descent.
So, logically, if one is Western the other is too. Just being a part of the American continent doesn't necessarily qualify for Westerness.

Russia has always been a Western country till the 1917 revolution, and even with the same ruling family as the rest of Europe. Russia as a country was actually founded by Swedish vikings. It's not because of 80 years of communism that it's lost its Westerness. Ethnically and culturally as Western as white Europeans or North Americans. Historically more Western than America. The term Western is strange when applied to Russia because of its Eastern geographical location.

Finally, Israel is very much Western in mentality and system, but ethnically and linguistically Semitic (be it Jews or Arabs), so not European, and thus not Western. But almost anybody considers Israel as a Western country, as most of its Jewish population originates from European countries or the US.

Singapore is more Westernized than Japan because it was founded by the British and English is still the official language.

[yimija]

[QUOTE=Maciamo]
Bolivia and Peru are composed of more than 50% Quechua (former Inca kingdom) and still speak Quechua.


Very good thread Maciamo, obviously lot of researches, and I'll would allow me just a small rectification if I may, mainly because I'm here today and very much concerned with it :

Quechuans are not a race but rather what is called an "ethno-linguistic familly" of about 7 millions in Peru alone. Quechuans are of different origines (some, yes from Incas, but also from the Chavin, Nazcas, Chimos a.s.o). It is like, if you want a comparison, all french speaking people. You'll have differents ethnic groups such as european, africans, oceanians, etc.
It may seems terribly futile to mention it, but I know that they would want it that way. Just like a Quebecois is not quiet a canadian and a Romand not quiet a swiss...

Now to the question is Japan a western country ? I'll only wish that Japan (as well a china, Korea a.o.) will always keep it's traditions and not burry them under tons of hamburgers, GMO, and whatever western "civilized countries" might bring. Japan has a real identity, known around the world as such, and that should stay. Let's hope that the politics will be able to wage wisely between "occidentalization" and respect of it's own civilization.

[Rioneru]

Seems to be too much mixing of apples and oranges, concerning individual stances in contrast with one's region's affliation, ethnicity, historical socio/poli influence, etc. Sure, all of these things have played a factor in establishing the terms Westerner and Easterner; so much so, that a possible distinction that could've been made primarily on geography or cultural is now lost.

I would have to say Japan comes off to me as an Eastern country that has very much been Westernized. But, of course, if you were to talk to a Japanese person, they would not consider themselves apart of the "Western world". I've actually found a large amount of Japanese find themselves to be quite different from the rest in the world, with perspective.

[Kyoto Returnee]

But, of course, if you were to talk to a Japanese person, they would not consider themselves apart of the "Western world". I've actually found a large amount of Japanese find themselves to be quite different from the rest in the world, with perspective.

That's a good point.

Not Asian, not Western but Japanese!

And would you believe we have Japanese Spaghetti for dinner tonight LOL.

I often tell Japanese that Australian Sushi is best!

[tasuki]

I was aware of all those facts, and I'm certainly not going to argue them with you. You and I seem to have a different view of the concept of Western, that's all. In my book westernized doesn't make western. The 80 years of communism in Russia were the ones that changed it all. From my experience with Ossies and Kiwis, I'd say that a lot of them would feel somewhat annoyed at being called a western country, which would make them part of the pack, a thing they pride themselves not to be.

I'm firmly believe that the concept of "western" countries began with the fall of the Roman Empire, gained in strength during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and then reached a relatively final state with the birth of the United States. The two world wars changed that but little. So basically, I think that for most people when one says western person or country one refers to people or countries of (as I said before) Latin, Angle, and Saxon ancestry.

Now if one were to quantify the westerness (I like that word!) by how westernized a country is, then Japan would win the crest hands down.

So I think you and I basically agree that westerness is a highly relative concept. But (not wanting to knock down my country of adoption), since Japanese like to categorize (as do a lot of other nations and peoples) I think many use the term western with only the vaguest of idea of what it means. Why west? West of what? Relative to what? We live on a ball, everything is west of something. Everything. So technically, we're all westerners AND easterners. Cool, eh?

[Onigiri]

Japan is not a western country!! I don't think you can define it western simply because it is developped. Japan still has many, many eastern traditions as regular practice. I really don't even see a point to this debate.

[Lina Inverse]

Japan is clearly NO Western country. "Western" means the opposite from "Eastern", which in turn refers to the Asian countries (Japan, China etc.).
"Western" refers to populations from the northern half of the Eurasian continent, and to North-American populations.
"Eastern" refers to populations from the Asian contries (southern half of the Eurasian continent).
Populations from Africa and South-America are neither Western nor Eastern, but Southern populations (more frequently also called "3rd-world-countries").

[chiquiliquis]

...Populations from Africa and South-America are neither Western nor Eastern, but Southern populations (more frequently also called "3rd-world-countries").

Please be sure to run that by someone from Africa or South America... you might be surprised at what you hear in response....

Quote:
Originally Posted by hua he

Actually, the so called "western" and "eastern" countries was actually differentiated racially. Just see, as long as it is a country with white in charge, this is a western country. If the country is with blacks or yellows in charge, it will be an eastern country. THis is the view of the whole world.

You hit the bull's eye.

... Hua He left out a group (or groups?); there are more people in this world than "whites" "blacks" and "yellows". And while this statement is somewhat true, I think it is slippery.

Why again is it important (necessary?) to be able to call people "eastern" or "western"... ?

This is certainly an interesting thread

[yimija]

Why again is it important (necessary?) to be able to call people "eastern" or "western"... ?

This is certainly an interesting thread

I agree with both sentences. It's an interesting thread well brought up by Maciamo. Thanks.

As for wether we are westerners or esterners will specifically depend wher you stand and wether you are facing north or south ...
Well it was intended as a joke, (and not as a stupid statement) just to shift the emphasis from a mere statement to a reality. It's just used by "whoever give some information" to sort of localize physically and geographically the subject. But since we always pick up what the Europeans say, we, in Asia, have been call the "easterner" .

It's just a name, not an insult or injurious name. It was not meant to be anyway. So let's keep it at that.

The main question asked in fact meant : Is Japan becomming too much of a "Europeanised and Americanized" country. And that somehow wouold b a shame, somewher (as I mentionned earlier)

[chiquiliquis]

It's just used by "whoever give some information" to sort of localize physically and geographically the subject.

I agree

The main question asked in fact meant : Is Japan becomming too much of a "Europeanised and Americanized" country. And that somehow wouold b a shame, somewher (as I mentionned earlier)

I see...

So:
What are the standards we use to measure cultural change, in terms of quality? IE: is it fair (a good idea/acceptable) to measure today's "Europeanised and Americanised" (a.k.a: "Globalised") Japan in terms of it's past alone? Do we use other standards, and what are they (if any)?

This isn't necessarily a question solely for Yimija, but something I am just throwing out... If it has alreadey been answered elsewhere in the thread, "gomen"... but this thread is getting long, and I came in late... I admit to skimming a bit.

[Maciamo]

Japan is clearly NO Western country. "Western" means the opposite from "Eastern", which in turn refers to the Asian countries (Japan, China etc.).
"Western" refers to populations from the northern half of the Eurasian continent, and to North-American populations.

So is Russian an Eastern countries, as it is clearly more East than Europe ? If not what about Turkey, Israel ? Is Morroco a Western countries because it is next to Western Europe ?

Populations from Africa and South-America are neither Western nor Eastern, but Southern populations (more frequently also called "3rd-world-countries").

Are you saying that Chile and Argentina (90% of pure European descent) are not Western countries ?

[yimija]

So is Russian an Eastern countries, as it is clearly more East than Europe ? If not what about Turkey, Israel ? Is Morroco a Western countries because it is next to Western Europe ?

Yes good remark, Maciamo ! As time goes by and that continents shifts in extremely slow motion, the countries that are built on those continents will have a tendency to move extremely fast from "east to west", strangely enough !!! Ima-Sumac only knows where Israel and Turkey stand, especially if you compare them with the Palestinian country...

Are you saying that Chile and Argentina (90% of pure European descent) are not Western countries ?

Unfortunately, they are not considered as western countries, and that is all the "funny" (i should say bizarre) part of it since that they are, geographically, just as much "west" as US & Canada. Africa is about the same as Europe and they are not not considered western.


Somewhere, and it's far from being a conclusion, it make me sick that we have to adopt a system in which we now are forced to give graduate "appreciation" of one's location and one's "wealth-by-location". I'm an optimistic person and I hope it will change. But I wont be here to see it. I'm planning a trip back home to Venus...

[scotsboyuk]

The problem in trying to determine whether or not Japan is a Western country is defining what we mean by 'Western'.
Clearly 'Western' is not a geographical term as both Australia and New Zealand are considered Western countries. 'Western' is also not a religious term as Western nations are tolerant of all religions and make no discrimination against particular religions.
'Western' is also not a term inferred from a Greco-Roman past. Egypt has a Greco-Roman past, as does Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, Morocco, etc and these nations are not considered 'Western'.

'Western' would seem to be a term applied to those countries, which have democratic governments, and which can trace their heritage back directly to Western Europe in one form or another.
Australia, New Zealand, Canada and America are all former British colonies and are all 'Western' countries. The member states of the EU are all 'Western' nations, those Eastern European nations, which have joined the EU are now considered 'Western' nations.
'Western' nations all share common beliefs and values e.g. democracy, freedom of speech, multi-culturalism, religious freedom, etc.

Japan has been directly and indirectly influenced by several Western nations over the past four centuries. Japan adopted many Western traits after WWI, having seen the triumph of the democratic powers. Japan then moved towards an authorotarian military state in WWII and then back to a democracy under direct Allied influence after WWII.
Japan can therefore be said to have been under Western influence.

There is freedom of religion in Japan.

Foreigners are allowed to live in Japan without fear of persecution.

One could therefore reasonably assume that Japan was a Western country based upon the above principles, however, such an assumption would be wrong. Such an asusmption fails to take into account the fact that Japan has never been a colony of a Western power. Japan has adopted certain aspects of Western culture, whilst retaining much of its own identity. A good example of this would be that after WWII Japan retained a monarchy, although that monarchy was drasticaly altered to fit more closely to Western ideals.

It is perhaps bets to think of Japan as a mixture of both Western and Eastern, it is no longer exclusively either.

[zeroyon]

Every country is western, and every country is eastern. It just depends on which direction you travel around the globe to get there XD

[Anatolian]

Looking at Geographically Japan most certainly is NOT western! But technology-wise they are. However why should the US and Europe not be called Eastern then because Japanese Technology far surpasses theirs : )

I hope Japan never loses its ancient roots and customs to a relentless wave of "western" influences. Even though modern Japan intrigues me, there's something about old Japan, and the noble Samurai heritage that is mystical to me. Maybe they echo my forfathers of Attila and the Turkic warriors..

[Maciamo]

Looking at Geographically Japan most certainly is NOT western! But technology-wise they are. However why should the US and Europe not be called Eastern then because Japanese Technology far surpasses theirs

Westerness has little to do with technology. It's more about the system and cultural, political and scientific heritage. Let say that the Western vs Eastern division originally means Europe vs Asia, but was shattered by the European expansion in the Americas and Oceania. Well, if it was only for the American continent, we could still say that Europe and the Americas were Western because of geography. But that doesn't work with Australia and NZ. So Western has come to mean people who have inherited, as I said, the system, culture, etc. of Europe.

But it is no limited to people of European descent, as many africans, asians and 'mixed races' both in Europe and the Americas have also become Westerners, absorbed by the culture and system of the country they reside in.

The purpose of this thread was mostly to determine whether the Japanese have absorbed enough of the Western system (politics, economy, sciences, education...) and culture (incl. language, food, clothes, music, lifestyle...) to be considered Western. If we only compare one European/North American country with Japan, the answer seems to be 'no'. However, looking at how Japan was before the Meiji revolution and how it is now, we can only say that most things found in Japan have been Westernized and very little remain of the original culture. Ironically, what remains most of the 'Japanese' culture and system is what came from China, i.e. the Kanji, Confucianism (e.g. seniority system and politeness system)...

About everything else has been Westernized : the clothes, food (e.g. dairy products and meat, none of whcih were eaten before Meiji), political system (democracy with political parties), technology and education (copied on the American model after WWII)... Even the main Western 'traditional events' such as the New Year (Japan used the Chinese New Year before Meiji, but now celebrates it on 1st January), Xmas or Valentine's have become more important than the traditional Sino-Japanese or Buddhist ones.

But looking at it like that, few countries in the world if any have resisted westernization. Japan is however one of the most Westernized countries in Asia, along with Singapore and South Korea. Sometimes I am really surprised at how many English words are used in everyday Japanese. I think no European language uses nearly as many.

[Kimota]

Japan modeled almost all of its modern institutions on Western countries. In this respect, it is Westernized.

The only country I've visited in Asia more Westernized than Japan is Singapore.

[Silverbackman]

Well it does depend how you look at it sort of. Japan is a very modern rich country but if we are going to say that modern and rich countries are western I think that is a bit rude;).

I think it more has to do with values. Despite the fact that Europe is becoming largelly non-religious, it still holds still to judeo-christian values. Even those who classify themselves as non-religious still partake in many western judeo-christian traditions such as christmas. Even if a nation is not religious the traditions and culture from it are enough to classify them.

For example in th East many Japanese still hold true to many shinto-buddhist values despite many not bein religious at all. In fact there are only 4 million actual shinto-buddhist followers, the rest of the 100 million are only shinto-buddhist by name. Despite this fact many still partake in shinto-buddhist traditions.

Japan has been heavily influenced by the west and some people would say Japan is the most "western" of all countries.

However when it comes down to the fundementals Japanese have a very different culture and tradition than people of Australia, New Zealand, Europe, USA, and Canada. The West has more judeo-christian traditions and culture while Japan has more shinto-buddhist traditions and culture. It has nothing with being religious, it more based IMO more on culture and tradition;).

[lu_bu1977]

Guess I will add my opinion as well... No, Japan is certainly not a Western country by any stretch of the imagination but a rather Westernised one.

Some Western folks have made the mistake of thinking it as a Western country and have paid the price by realising their folly first hand when they enter its judicial system. What they would have gotten a slap on the wrist for back in their own countries, e.g. possession and usage of certain narcotics, they end up sitting (literally) in jail for many, many years in Japan. Yes, in spirit, Japan is as east-asian as it gets. The rights of the individual seem to take 2nd place to the good of the majority.

An interesting read:
http://www.phaseloop.com/foreignpris...son-japan.html


ex-gaijin, maybe the word inscrutable would be a more appropriate term.

[extricate]

Japan is in a sense a "western" nation because if it were not for the west, Japan would not be the democratic, economic powerhouse, and prosperous
nation we see today. Also I'm rather disheartened by the Japanese people on this thread completely rejecting any idea of them being westernized at all . Lets take a look at some history shall we?
Japan began an offical policy of modernization in 1868, From the 1700's on up they translation many european treatsies on various topics including but not limited to medicine, astronomy, philosophy, etc. In 1811 Japan made a government agency called the "Institute for the Investigation of Barbarian Books." It is unwise to think that Japan became this way on her own. The education system was set up on western models, Armies were trained with Western Tactics and instructors in the late 1800's. The first "democracy" of Japan was set up on the prussian model. Moderization was set up on western models. This is just pure and utter fact and history. The leaders of this time period saw the necessity to modernize and I believe it was a logical decesion on their part. Also after WWII democracy was set up by the USA in Japan.
I'm not trying to say all of Japans success is because of the west. Japan (and Germany as well) did absolutely splendid jobs rebuilding themselves after WWII. I'm just saying without western Influence we probably wouldn't see the same Japan that we see today. Also keep in note Japan has a long history of culture and idea borrowing. It was pretty much a steady thing throughout their entire history (in bc times it was China).
"Is Japan a western nation?" This is hard to discern. i'm not sure if i would define it as a western country but most definitly a westernized country

[Sensationalist]

The correct terminology would be westernized. Of course Japan is not a Western country, but it is westernized. Some would say that Hawaii is Japan since so many of its population are of Japanese descent.