Is Japan a Western country ?

[Golgo_13]

I'll kanpai to that lol

Kanpai !!!!

[Ogumo]

Japan is a eastern nation with far too many western elements for it's own good.

[TwistedMac]

says you!

[Gackt_Camui]

Of course, it all depends on what we call "Western". There are several definitions.

First, the geographical opposition between Europe and Asia, but that alone has turned out to be a too simple definition, as Australia or New Zealand are more East than Asia, but definitely Western. So is it a cultural or ethnic distinction rather purely geographical ?

Secondly, Western used to refer to the Capitalist world during the cold war. The East-West opposition was especially valid for Europe, but on a global point of view, America the NATO countries laid West, while the communist world (not only the USSR, but also China and North Korea) laid East.

Finally (I think), most Europeans consider that a Western country is about the same as an industrialised/developped one.

The 2 latter points, Japan is definitely Western, and I think that's also where most Europeans would place Japan (from the opinions I have heard). Nonetheless, Japanese always stress the opposition between themselves and Westerners (or foreigners in general). They certainly not feel Western, but what if others consider them as such because they have a different definition ?

Before developping more deeply, I let you reflect on this and give your opinions.

its eastern whats the matter with you

[blessed]

Just because they stopped carrying katanas everywhere doesn't mean they stopped being Japanese.

Just because you can find a few Macdonalds' there, doesn't mean they turned American.

European economic policies don't make the country European, it's just that economics was mainly developed in Europe and America.

And just because they embrace some beliefs of Americans doesn't make them
American; I don't suddenly turn Japanese if I start sleeping on the floor and taking off my shoes before entering my house?

Just cause they went through some changes since the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate doesn't mean they are no longer who they are: change is inevitable.

[Ewok85]

I'd call it an Eastern country with Western influences. Apart from geography how people think is what makes a country what it is.

[Golgo_13]

Are we still on this?

Japan is not a western country. It's a modern country.

[Surronded]

I think that is not. The culture and manners are really diferent, i see it from here (i'm not in japan). I can't tell more, but from what i heard (trustable sources) is quite diferent.

[OnegaiNL]

i don't seem to get it why they like western countries that much... our countries truly suck ... and the most what i hate is that stupid import into Japan... because thats destroying the Japanese culture

i dont mind if there's anime, manga and more stuff here... but i dont want Japan to change into some stupid western country like USA .

i like Japan how it is / was .... and why do Japanese people always show their t-shirts and stuff with the flag of usa on it... or other countries.. it makes me wanna say.... "ehh i come here for Japan, i don't come here to see stuff from my country"

am i talking the truth or not ?

[TwistedMac]

i don't seem to get it why they like western countries that much... our countries truly suck ... and the most what i hate is that stupid import into Japan... because thats destroying the Japanese culture

i dont mind if there's anime, manga and more stuff here... but i dont want Japan to change into some stupid western country like USA .

i like Japan how it is / was .... and why do Japanese people always show their t-shirts and stuff with the flag of usa on it... or other countries.. it makes me wanna say.... "ehh i come here for Japan, i don't come here to see stuff from my country"

am i talking the truth or not ?

not.

your first question (or rather statement):
"i don't seem to get it why they like western countries that much"
I shall explain with an old saying: the grass is always greener on the other side

how japan "was" depends on what era you're talking so i have no idea what it is you want there.. if you mean the samurai period... sure.. why not bring back a time when only the samurai could have names, everyone else were to only be known by their profession ("hi fisherman!" "well waddayaknow! hi cobbler, haven't seen you in a while, how's horsedungsalesman doing?") and samurai killed people for looking at them the wrong way (not an exaduration) and everyone was just plain false and murderous.. that's a GREAT time to live in.. especially if you're horsedungsalesman's apprentice or something.

copying the good stuff from another countries is a way to evolve as a people.. to reach new technologic advances.. what's the use in re-inventing the wheel?

the "it was better in the old days" mentality is dead wrong.. it WASN'T better in the old days.. everyone remembers the good parts of everything...

it's like when i was in the army... I hated every moment of guard duty.. I also don't have a single real memory from guard duty.. or any other boring or otherwise negative task.. I do however have alot of cool memories.. but if I add them all up they'd probably be something like a week.. I didn't do my services for a week.

the bad parts are always set aside.. so whatever picture you have of old japan is romantisized(?) to a very high degree... just go there and enjoy how it is now.

[OnegaiNL]

not.

your first question (or rather statement):
"i don't seem to get it why they like western countries that much"
I shall explain with an old saying: the grass is always greener on the other side

how japan "was" depends on what era you're talking so i have no idea what it is you want there.. if you mean the samurai period... sure.. why not bring back a time when only the samurai could have names, everyone else were to only be known by their profession ("hi fisherman!" "well waddayaknow! hi cobbler, haven't seen you in a while, how's horsedungsalesman doing?") and samurai killed people for looking at them the wrong way (not an exaduration) and everyone was just plain false and murderous.. that's a GREAT time to live in.. especially if you're horsedungsalesman's apprentice or something.

copying the good stuff from another countries is a way to evolve as a people.. to reach new technologic advances.. what's the use in re-inventing the wheel?

the "it was better in the old days" mentality is dead wrong.. it WASN'T better in the old days.. everyone remembers the good parts of everything...

it's like when i was in the army... I hated every moment of guard duty.. I also don't have a single real memory from guard duty.. or any other boring or otherwise negative task.. I do however have alot of cool memories.. but if I add them all up they'd probably be something like a week.. I didn't do my services for a week.

the bad parts are always set aside.. so whatever picture you have of old japan is romantisized(?) to a very high degree... just go there and enjoy how it is now.

well first to say... you use "you can't re-invent the wheel" WAY TOO MUCH IN YOUR POSTS

and im talking about the time after WW2 ... and im kind of interested in samurai can't help it but i'd rather live in a country that has it's own and unique culture

you will probably reply and say

"they have their own unique culture"

but in fact that culture is fading in the years... i don't want Japan to change into some european country like a big capital with no nature at all ...

i don't want Japan to change from beautiful .. to some stinky sewer

but that's probably only me who thinks this way and looks at it this way... but people don't seem to get it.

i don't come to a country just for technology
because i have enough in my own country

i just want to see alot of the nature and old houses and stuff ...
and about the old saying "the grass is always greener on the other side"
it means copycat everyone ... so you rather see Japan look like USA ... instead of having it's own look ...
it also mean's... if you like a celebrity like Britney Spears or whatever ... everyone should look like that?

and by the way... Japan grew trough import and export ... and not by changing their whole culture into some kind of USA fans culture

[TwistedMac]

well first to say... you use "you can't re-invent the wheel" WAY TOO MUCH IN YOUR POSTS

once? first time I use it.. not to mention almost first time I post a serious post.

and about the old saying "the grass is always greener on the other side"
it means copycat everyone ... so you rather see Japan look like USA ... instead of having it's own look ...
it also mean's... if you like a celebrity like Britney Spears or whatever ... everyone should look like that?

and by the way... Japan grew trough import and export ... and not by changing their whole culture into some kind of USA fans culture

you're not very good at sayings huh?... it means you'll always think everyone else has it better than you do.. that you'd always rather have what they're having...

[Glenn]

Well, Japan is not like the US, or any European country, either. If you don't believe me then just look around a bit on this forum, esp. Maciamo's posts.

Also, this was said in the Why Japanese copy everything thread, but copying and assimilating something into your own culture is not the same thing as becoming a clone of another culture. The Japanese are no more American for importing American things than the Americans are Japanese for importing Japanese things.

[OnegaiNL]

Well, Japan is not like the US, or any European country, either. If you don't believe me then just look around a bit on this forum, esp. Maciamo's posts.

Also, this was said in the Why Japanese copy everything thread, but copying and assimilating something into your own culture is not the same thing as becoming a clone of another culture. The Japanese are no more American for importing American things than the Americans are Japanese for importing Japanese things.

people don't see and don't read
since i said that Japan is slowly changing into an european country
as it's already so mega cool to have english slogans in your commercials so called to be modern.

do you see any real big changes in US ? not really except for that manga and anime gained popularity (but that's mostly because of fansubs)

Japan whatsoever changed alot ... alot of things from the US can be seen in Japan... import and export is important... but i don't see why Japan is evolving too much...alot of traditions (older one's) are cut off
and no im not talking about the samurai one's ... i'm talking about the normal lifestyle one's in those days. Those were cut off in the last 50 years or so .

Will there be more huge changes? Because if Japan is going to look more like USA ... i could go on vacation to USA instead of Japan... b/c it's cheaper.

still i'll go to Japan no matter what...

another note
technology doesn't always bring good.

[kirei_na_me]

OnegaiNL, if you want to talk about this subject, you can go to a really good and popular thread by Maciamo:

http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1303

Let's try to stay on topic, even though this topic is lame to begin with.

[Glenn]

And done. Alright, now:

people don't see and don't read
since i said that Japan is slowly changing into an european country
as it's already so mega cool to have english slogans in your commercials so called to be modern.

Since it's not a European country and it's slowly changing, why couldn't you go there and not have a problem with it being European?

do you see any real big changes in US ? not really except for that manga and anime gained popularity (but that's mostly because of fansubs)

Well, there is the influx of kanji tatoos and just kanji everywhere in general, video games, anime, and martial arts.

Japan whatsoever changed alot ... alot of things from the US can be seen in Japan... import and export is important... but i don't see why Japan is evolving too much...alot of traditions (older one's) are cut off
and no im not talking about the samurai one's ... i'm talking about the normal lifestyle one's in those days. Those were cut off in the last 50 years or so .

What traditions have Japan lost from the past 50 years that you so desperately want back?

Will there be more huge changes? Because if Japan is going to look more like USA ... i could go on vacation to USA instead of Japan... b/c it's cheaper.

See above on this one.

another note
technology doesn't always bring good.

What does that have to do with anything?

[blessed]

aha, I have it: why should they be western... if that means having a big mac once in a while, or watching disney or drinking Earl grey or listening to.... Radiohead (go Radiohead!!!!! )...
I see a lot of people eating sushi, watching anime, driving japanese cars, buying sony products, playing Playstation, Gamecube...and I'm currently on a site called "Japanese Reference"...
...in other words, I, and probably the westerners reading this, are getting "easternised", "they" are getting "westernised", and we'll all happily meet in the middle, or switch sides, hwhatever...

another new though: making the east democratic isnt westernising them... just like getting laws out of Babylon (located, ironically, in ancient Iraq) wasn't... "Mesopotamianising" everyone; its just the spread of information.

[Maciamo]

why should they be western... if that means having a big mac once in a while, or watching disney or drinking Earl grey or listening to.... Radiohead (go Radiohead!!!!! )...
I see a lot of people eating sushi, watching anime, driving japanese cars, buying sony products, playing Playstation, Gamecube...and I'm currently on a site called "Japanese Reference"...
...in other words, I, and probably the westerners reading this, are getting "easternised", "they" are getting "westernised", and we'll all happily meet in the middle, or switch sides, hwhatever...

Good point about borrowing each others products or inventions, but I don't think products themselves make somebody Western or Eastern. There are so many products that can be found worldwide nowadays. Then, what if this or that country hadn't invented or commercialized worldwide this or that popular product (McDonald, BMW, Evian, Parmesan cheese, Playstation...) ? Would it make these countries like Western or Eastern ? Certainly not. There are no Starbucks in most European countries, and they are everywhere in Japan. So what ? That's only the product of one country, not the whole West. Similarily, mangas are Japanese, but not "Eastern". Video games were not even invented in Japan, and most PC games are made in the West.

That bring us back to the question : "What does it mean to be Western ?"

- being Caucasian ? hmm, maybe, but then what about well-adaptedimmigrants or black Americans ? Are they just people who have adopted Western ways ? I guess so (that does not include lots of immigrants and a sizeable portions of the Afro-American population, who have a noticeable different, and un-Western culture of their own).

- being from a Judeo-christian background ? I don't like that idea for 2 reasons. 1) Western culture has its root in Greco-Roman civilization, which predates Christianity, and 2) most younger European are definitely not Christians (even less Jewish) nowadays.

- using a Western legal, political and economic system ? maybe, but then lots of countries are Westernizing fast, and Japan is definitely Western then.

- being part of the Western Civilization and way of thinking, including the whole influence of Greco-Roman, Judeo-Christian, and European civilizations ? Yes ! That is probably the answer. This is also why a whole country cannot be considered "Western", as it depends too much on individuals themselves. Take a country like Peru or Venezuela. I am sure some (Caucasian, upper-class) people will be very Western in their way of thinking. But is it true of Quechuan or other Ameridian people ? Is it true of meztisos and so on ? Mostly not. That is why very often "Westernness" is brought back to being "Caucasian" because almost all Caucasians are Western in thinking, and only a minority of the world's non-Caucasian population are Western in thinking (including adopted children, etc.).

As for the Japanese, I am sure some of them think like Westerners, but most are still too influenced by Japanese traditional values and Confucianism to be called Westerners. But I do know a few people (who happen to speak English well, be very interested in Western countries, and in favour of change in Japan toward more Westernization and against Confucianist values) that I consider more Western than Japanese.

[cicatriz esp]

Confucianism is too heavily ingrained in the people's mindset for Japan to be considered Western. A lot of that philosophy does not mesh with judeo-christian philosophy or outlook. As much as the Japanese would like it to.

[corocoro]

Hi, I'm Japanese and this is my first post here.

Is Japan a Western country?...

NO! not at all!! No matter how you guys see us or our country, we are sooooooooo asian! Why should we be western anyway? and I don't know why you guys think that we want to be westerner which is not true. What would you think if we say you are easterner(or Japanese?) because you eat our food, watching anime and buying Japanese products etc... I'm sure that most of you would say "NOOOOOOOOO WAAAAAAY!"and start to laugh.

I think it's the same thing. We may love wearing "t-shirts and stuff with the flag of usa on it... or other countries" but it's not like we want to be like the US either westerner, Japan is Japan. It's only my opinion, but Japanese are so very curious and we accept and swallow evrything that is appeal to us. don't even think much about where it come from. We just love things that we think cool or better!

Western countries are happen to be more advanced than eastern countries so Japan was much infulenced by western. but if it was a eastern dominated world, things might have been different. Who knows?

I don't mind what you parsonally would think about our country, but please don't say we want to be westerner or something that is untrue. That makes me kind of sad...;)

[-Yu-]

Well, it's true, some of Japanese want to be like westerners or want to make this country westerned.
Therefore many things have been done in order to lead this country into capitalism by them.

That's a subject of another thread though.

I think, yes, as some mentioned, Japan isn't really like westerned but americanized, here in Japan, generally when people talk about western, what country comes in their minds first is America, that is to say Japan is influenced by America most, even in uncouncious level.

[Maciamo]

Hi Corocoro,

NO! not at all!! No matter how you guys see us or our country, we are sooooooooo asian! Why should we be western anyway? and I don't know why you guys think that we want to be westerner which is not true.

We don't want you to be Westerners. The point of this thread is to understand what it really means to be "Western". For example, do you think that Japanese-Americans (2nd, 3rd or 4th generation) are Wersterners ? If they were born there, speak English as their first language, think and behave like Americans, it doesn't matter whether their blood or name is Japanese, they are American, and thus Westerners.

What would you think if we say you are easterner(or Japanese?) because you eat our food, watching anime and buying Japanese products etc... I'm sure that most of you would say "NOOOOOOOOO WAAAAAAY!"and start to laugh.

That is where you maybe be wrong. As Blessed said above, some (Western) people like so much Japanese products and culture that they actually want to become Japanese or do things like the Japanese. If someone can actually learn so much about Japan and behave so much like a Japanese, speak Japanese, live in Japan, get Japanese nationality, etc., can't they be considered to be Japanese and therefore Eatsern ?

But where is the limit for someone to shift from Western to Eastern ? As I wrote 2 posts above, I don't think that only using or liking products from one country changes one's Westernness or Easternness. Otherwise Japan would be a Western country, because about 90% of all products in Japan are Western in origin (even Japanese cars or TV's, as they are originally Western inventions).

If we consider the State and not the people, Japan is very Western, as it has a Western-style constitution, legal system, parliament, ministries, courts, and most laws were copied on the West (driving rules, real estate regulations, commercial laws, etc.).

So, I guess the only thing that remains to determine whether Japanese people are Eastern or Western is the way they think and behave. Considering the huge differences of culture between Western (sep. European) countries, I think the only real important thing they have in common is the Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian heritage. And this is what Japan doesn't have. Well, partly, as it has learned and copied a lot from the West that come from it. There are also so many words from English or other European languages in Japanese, than the language itself is "slowly" Westernizing itself. What about Japanese people who have lived abroad, speak English and think more like Westerners than traditional Japanese ? Couldn't we say that this minority is actually Western ?

Thank you for you consideration.

I think, yes, as some mentioned, Japan isn't really like westerned but americanized, here in Japan, generally when people talk about western, what country comes in their minds first is America, that is to say Japan is influenced by America most, even in uncouncious level.

That is funny and a bit sad at the same time. The US is only one of many Western countries. If Japanese people focus only on America, they will never understand what it means to be Western, as they cannot see the huge cultural differences between Western countries. By the way, there are about 500 million Europeans, but only 280 million Americans. Only the EU now has 20 official languages + many dialects or non official languages.

I often hear Japanese think that all Westerners are Americans or "like the Americans". I am shocked everytime I hear it. Stereotypes like "Westerners are individualistic", or "they speak too directly or frankly", or "they are more self-confident than the Japanese", are all false.

Greeks, Spaniards or Portuguese are certainly as collectivist (if not more) than Japanese. English people (esp. middle or upper-class) are famous for being polite, hypocritical and using a lot of understatement, making them very alike to the Japanese. Then many English or Nordic (Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish) people are quieter and often seem less self-confident than even the Japanese. As for such things as being well-prepared, meticulous, hard-working, etc. Japanese and German people are also very similar.

[Reiku]

LOL

Interesting thread...

...personally I gave up on questions like this when I was 2 and realized that the earth was round.

[stupidumboy]

here is my very simple and ignorant answer but I think usually the definition of western means geographycally European continent related ,looking like white europeans.(including anglo,latin,german,nordic etc etc)

many aspects can be discussed in religious,cultural,phiolosphical etc etc etc point of views but I think usually we just remind geographical and outward looking things to judge whether it is western or not.

is japan western country? my answer is no.

[Maciamo]

here is my very simple and ignorant answer but I think usually the definition of western means geographycally European continent related ,looking like white europeans.(including anglo,latin,german,nordic etc etc)

This is a bit simple indeed. Australia is a Western country (nobody would deny it) eventhough it is geographically as East as Japan. Because Western culture and people have spread on all over the world, the original geographic meaning of "Western" has lost its significance. Because lots of Western countries have become ethnically mixed (like the US, UK or Australia), being Western does not just mean being Caucasian. Because geography and ethic origins do not matter to be Western, it's more in the way people think and behave, but without forgetting that there are huge differences between Italian, Finnish, Irish, French, American or Australian people, but they are all Western nevertheless. Is there enough similarity between the Japanese and people from these Western countries to consider Japan one of them ? I could find many similarities between the Japanese and the Germans, Italians or Britons - although much less with the French or Americans.