Some explanation about me in the last few months

[blade_bltz]

Maciamo - just out of curiosity, have you ever lived in the US? If so, could you briefly share some of your opinions/experiences. Sorry if this is common knowledge to the rest of the forum...

[Ma Cherie]

Maciamo - just out of curiosity, have you ever lived in the US? If so, could you briefly share some of your opinions/experiences. Sorry if this is common knowledge to the rest of the forum...

*whispers* Mac has been to the US, but...........I don't think he would want to visit the US again. *whispers*

[Maciamo]

*whispers* Mac has been to the US, but...........I don't think he would want to visit the US again. *whispers*

As a tourist, I wouldn't mind going back to the US. In fact, I really want to visit New York, Boston, Washington and California, and maybe also a few national parks. But I certainly wouldn't like to live in the US for several reasons (if I have too, it would probably be in NY or New England).

[Apollo]

I have just seen this thread....I must be more active in here....
I am surprised, but happy that you are happy with the choice.

Was it very easy going back to Belgium? I mean, finding a house and finding a job for you/and your wife can be quite time-consuming.

[Pachipro]

It is discouraging me though -- alot. It makes me not want to live there (Because I want to live there as a long term resident as well)

And what I'v read in this thread makes me less desire to go go Japan ,I was curious about Japan though.

Do not make one, or a few peoples' experiences, decide for you whether you should go to Japan or not. As I've said in another thread, to deny yourself the experience of visiting Japan, if that is your desire, based on a few "bad experiences" is to deny yourself an education. Unless you've experienced it for yourself how will you ever know? Just because someone else had a bad experience doesn't mean that you will also. You may just find that you like the country.

I have debated with Maciamo numerous times in the past and, if you've read any of my posts, you'll see that I had a completely opposite experience and I lived there many more years than he did.

Originally Posted by Gaijin 06
Don't take what you read in this thread about Japan as a representative sample of most foreigners experiences. Japan can be a hard place to integrate into, but if you make enough effort and are open minded enough then it is possible to live a happy life here.

I have met (and work with) a lot of "foreigners", including Chinese who've been here a long time and they like Japan and Japanese people.

I'm sorry but y not ? Maciamo has surely tried enough to fit in Japan yet to no avail. Also I have read the same reactions that he has had by many other foreigners.... one of them Will Fergusson in the book Hokkaido Highway Blues..

But the question remains, "Did he really try to fit into Japan or did he try and make Japan fit into his view of what Japan should be based on his views and opinions and western thinking?" After a year here on JRef, I believe in the latter as Maciamo's desire seemed to be that Japan should change its entire culture based on what he, and others, think it should be so that they would feel more comfortable living there. Unfortunately, this is an all too common ailment of foreigners living in Japan. They try to change it or lash out against it and, when things don't change, they leave in utter frustration giving others, who have never been to Japan, a false impression of the country and its culture.

Do not misinterpret what I am saying here. Maciamo is not wrong in his assessment of Japan, but it should not be taken as the rule as I, and others, have a completely different assessment and experiences. What bothered him never bothered me as I understood just where the Japanese were coming from. His is just one mans opinion and is shared by many frustrated gaijin.

As I said above, just because he and a couple of others had a bad experience, does not mean everyone will. Gaijin 06 is correct in his assessment.

You are certainly correct that a good many other foreigners have similar experiences and reactions. Those few of us who make our peace with it stay; the overwhelming majority leave. That Maciamo couldn't tolerate it anymore and left is in no way a negative reflection on him. Nor should it be taken as a damning indictment of Japan.

Like you Mike I left once only to return less than a year later. Foreigners who stay have made their peace with the differences in the culture and I do not forsee it changing anytime in the near, or distant, future.

I find this interesting (and unfortunate), because in my case, the balance has shifted more in favor of good experiences the longer I've been involved with Japan, and as my understanding of the culture and command of the language have improved. This is why I'm surprised that your good experiences have been so few (and actually decreased with time), as I know that you have a fairly good command of the language, and I would think that would have allowed you to make more positive relationships, i.e. people who you can have meaningful conversations with, as opposed to "Wow, you can use chopsticks!" etc.

You explained it so well and said much of what I wanted to say and feel that there is not much I can add to your fine assessment and analysis of the situation of living there as I feel pretty much the same way.

As a famous author once said, "East is East and West is West, and never the Twain shall meet."

Perhaps this story, "East is East - Get Used To It", in the British newspaper, The Guardian, explains a little better what I and others are trying to say here. Japan will never change, nor should she and bow to foreign pressure or by foreigners living there. If we (gaijin, foreigners) want to live there, we either accept the country and its customs and culture for what it is or, like Maciamo and many other foreigners, they let it get the best of them and high tail it out of there to live in a place they are more comfortable with. "Can you use chopsticks? Do you have fireworks in your country? Can you eat sushi? Do you sleep on a futon?"

"Yes I can and yes we do", I answer for the umpteenth time. But it doesn't bother me and is a way to make new friends, maintain old ones, and keep a conversation going while learning the little intricacies of a foreign culture as, no matter how long I may be living there, there is always something new to learn. And, even if the same person asks me the same question for the fifth time, I'll politely answer and maybe, with a little frustration, think to myself how ignorant he might really be. But he really is a nice person and has made a sincere effort to be my friend.

There were, and are, many things I do not agree with in Japan and living there. But I, like Mike Cash and jt and Gaijin 06, among others, have "made our peace with it." We understand the cultural differences and accept them and learn to live with them for, if we do not like it, we can always leave.

"But Pachipro, you are not living there! How can you make such statements?", some might ask. Well, for those of you who are new and who may not have read my other posts on this subject, I have lived there for many years, visit once or twice a year and, in a few years, plan to retire there permanently. (Yes I know I have said this more than a few times in past posts.)

As with all countries and cities around the world, Japan has it's good points and its bad points. To me, the good far outweighs the bad and it is a wonderful place to live, in my opinion, and experience. In fact I enjoy living there more than I do here in the US. And it is cheaper here, the roads are less crowded, and no one asks me silly questions unless it is something like, "Is it hot all year in Japan?" or "Do Japanese wear kimono everyday in Japan?" or something silly like that. Try it. You may just like it and discover something new.

[Maciamo]

There were, and are, many things I do not agree with in Japan and living there. But I, like Mike Cash and jt and Gaijin 06, among others, have "made our peace with it." We understand the cultural differences and accept them and learn to live with them for, if we do not like it, we can always leave.

I know this is true for you and Mike, but I am not sure for the two others. Gaijin 06 has only arrived in Japan a few months ago. Perosnally I did not feel irritated by all the things mentioned above until my 3rd year in Japan. You can't "make peace with it" if you haven't come into conflict with it first. And small things like the ones I mentioned are not things that would normally annoy me, if they happened just a few times a year. It is the frequency and accumulation over the years, combined with an increasing realisation that a majority of the people in that country behave like that, that lead to frustration and irritation...

I guess I could have had a (slightly) more positive experience, had I lived in another area (with less conservative, elderly people), had another job (with less chances to be asked personal questions than as a one-to-one conversation teacher !). It would not have changed the way Japanese people are, but it could have made it more bearable by not hearing the same stereotypical comments and being asked the same questions almost everyday. But it was too late to change. I have reached a stage where just hearing a Japanese talk about the seasons, chopsticks or fireworks make me on the defensive, and being asked about them drives me crazy. When you have had an overdose of something, be it food, alcohol, music or some kind of people, you just can't have it anymore, even if you used to like it.

[Pachipro]

Perosnally I did not feel irritated by all the things mentioned above until my 3rd year in Japan. You can't "make peace with it" if you haven't come into conflict with it first. And small things like the ones I mentioned are not things that would normally annoy me, if they happened just a few times a year. It is the frequency and accumulation over the years, combined with an increasing realisation that a majority of the people in that country behave like that, that lead to frustration and irritation...

The 3rd year you mentioned is critical in that many "frustrated gaijin" leave during that year as they are completely "fed up" so to speak. And there are some that become frustrated quicker. However, those that stay beyond that time to the 4th, 5th, or longer years usually make peace with it and accept it for what it is.

Believe you me, I went through the same frustration so I know exactly what you have experienced. As I've mentioned previously, the majority of foreigners have a love-hate relationship with Japan with very, very few being completely at ease and comfort with living and working in Japan. While on the other extreme, there are very, very few who completely love living there and have no complaints whatsoever. For the vast majority of us, we struggle with it until we either accept it for what it is or we leave.

Once I accepted Japan and the culture for what it is and stopped trying to change it to suit my needs, it became more comfortable and enjoyable living there. And, as with where I am living now, I still had my irritations and gripes (as I probably would have anywhere I lived in the world), but, as I do here in Tennessee (which is a fine place to live btw), I accept them and go on with life. I make the best of it.

I guess I could have had a (slightly) more positive experience, had I lived in another area (with less conservative, elderly people), had another job (with less chances to be asked personal questions than as a one-to-one conversation teacher !). It would not have changed the way Japanese people are, but it could have made it more bearable by not hearing the same stereotypical comments and being asked the same questions almost everyday. But it was too late to change. I have reached a stage where just hearing a Japanese talk about the seasons, chopsticks or fireworks make me on the defensive, and being asked about them drives me crazy. When you have had an overdose of something, be it food, alcohol, music or some kind of people, you just can't have it anymore, even if you used to like it.

I don't really think it would have changed your perceptions of Japan and the Japanese people and culture. Each person has his/her own experience and feelings regardless of where they live in the country.

However, I still commend you for learning the language so fast and at least attempting to understand the culture. Many foreigners do not even do a tenth of what you have done while living there, but complain none the less.

At least you have something to back you up. If someone says to to you, "Oh yeah? Did you learn to speak and read and write the language?" You can reply, "Yes, I did." If they say, "Oh yeah? Did you learn about their history and culture"? You can reply, "Yes, I did." Very few can answer in the affirmative.

Let me ask you one question: How would you feel if a Japanese person came to Belgium, became fluent in the language, history, and culture, and tried to change Belgium to suit his needs as a Japanese feels other countries should be based on his thinking? What if he incessently complained about how Belgiens (sp) do not sit on the floor, or bathe regularly in an ofuro, or eat rice regularly or anything for that matter that is so foreign to Belgiens and not their culture? Would you not think he/she was out of place in trying to change Belgium's customs, politics, education, etc?

I would. I think the same is true in Japan and of the Japanese. That is what makes this world so unique and wonderful. If everything was the same no matter where I went in the world, what fun would that be? For lack of a better example, if there were McDonalds and such, and the same US food all over the world, what fun would that be? I would never be allowed to sample a different countries food as there would be no difference throughout the world when it came to food.

But I still smile to myself at how frustrated you must have been and how annoyed it made you over 3+ years as I have seen it many times and experienced it myself. IMO, for what it is worth, Japan may have been a good experience for you, and another notch on your belt, so to speak, in your travels around the world. But it is not the place you were destined to live for any length of time in. Too bad. As many foreigners have tried, including a few famous tarento, to get Japan to change, but all have failed. I was sort of hoping you would be the one to do it.